بشرى سارة بخصوص موقع دكتورة وفاء سلطان - دوري

عاد موقع الدكتورة وفاء بيمن الله ورعايته للنشر ومزاولة النشاط ندعوا الجميع للعودة وزيارة الموقع

تابعوا قصة سجينة الفتاة السعودية

قصتي مع فتاة سعودية
قصة حقيقية ومن الواقع وتجسد معاناة المرأة السعودية
تم نشر القصة
صرخة فتاة سعودية ونداء استغاثة من داخل المملكة
"اخرجوني من هذا الجحيم"
اهداء لاصدقائي بموقع دوري



Prisoner
My new mission for 2011 from within, from within the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia the birthplace of Mohammad.
"Zaina" A Saudi young lady shares her ordeal , agony and misery under the Islamic rule while living in Saudi Arabia , a prisoner and hostage in her own country and home. a sad but true story,,,

Jehad Alawneh interview on ITF web site

Dear Friends, ladies and gents, please visit the ITF web site, and please read and comment on Jehad Alawneh interview, its very easy to comment, at the bottom of the interview, there is a box, enter your name and any comment, u do not need to be a member, u do not need to sign up and we do not require your e mail. very simple, please give us your feedback, the interview is excellent and is worthy of reading and commenting. please use this link:
http://www.infideltaskforce.com/itfinterviews.htm

تابعو مقابلة الكاتب الاردني جهاد العلاونه

تم نشر المقابلة باللغة العربية والانجليزية
Don't miss the interview with the Jordanian writer Jihad Alawneh published below

Todays message

اهلاً وسهلاُ بجميع الأصدقاء والصديقات ويشرفني وارحب بزوار الموقع من موقع الدكتورة وفاء سلطان وتلفزيون دوري واخص بالذكر الكاتب الاردني جهاد علاونه ,الكاتب السوري نضال نعيسة والكاتب العراقي والشاعر رياض الحبيّب الصديق مجد وهالة سامية و علياء و مريم
و الزعيم ابن الطبيعة و زياد وجيمس و جانيت والحج روندي والدكتور نبيل بارون والأصدقاء من موقع الحوار المتمدن واخص بالذكر فواز محمد .
قررت اضافة مواضيع باللغة العربية الى المواضيع المكتوبة باللغة الانجليزية لافساح المجال واعطاء الفرصة لعدد اكبر من الزوار خصوصاٌ للأصدقاء من الوطن العربي ومتكلمين اللغة العربية من المشاركة والأطلاع والتعليق اذا شاؤوا أهلاً وسهلاً بالجميع.
Welcome to all my friends and guests especially my visitors from the ITF web site, please feel free to participate and comment on any topic. I have decided to expand and include some topics in Arabic to allow for others especially from the muslim world to participate and in order for the message to reach as many people as possible

Dedication and Words of Wisdom:

To my dear friends, welcome to my blog. This blog is a dedication to my brothers , sisters and good friends at the ITF, ASK, and Ummat-Al-Kuffar ,Dawry TV., alhiwar almoutamaden.
تلفزيون دوري والأصدقاء من موقع الحوار
المتمدن

please visit them on below links.


Please take the time to read the topics I posted below, feel free to comment.

To my dear muslim friends, you are also welcome here, this is not a hate site nor it is an anti Islam propaganda and it is not an Islamophobes hangout. please feel free to comment and participate in debate,dialog and discussions .

Final message, lets all work together in making this world a better and safer place, and lets keep those islamists, radicals ,fanatics and terrorists in check, and lets hope that we will live in peace and harmony.

Infidels Task Force - ITF

Ummat-Al-Kuffar

ASK

Wednesday, May 13, 2009

Islam, a religion or a cult?



If you asked me what is a religion , i would answer anything that teaches human beings values, like love, forgiveness and peace, values that Jesus taught us and was an example and he lived all these values, it was not simply words that he passed along and did not follow , he taught us to turn the other cheek and to love one another he even told us to love the enemy, he forgave his enemy too.
now what is a cult?
a cult is a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols - Islam is a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
a cult is a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. - Islam is a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
a cult is a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal - islam is a a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal
a cult has a leader - islam has a leader
a cult is devotion - islam is devotion
a cult is domination - islam is domination
a cult uses control and fear tactics - islam uses control and fear tactics
a cult brainwashes members - islam brainwashes members
a cult uses violence and beatings - islam commits violence, beatings and terror
if u leave a cult u can get killed - if u leave islam / apostate u can get killed
now that we see the similarities , i can conclude that it is a perfect match therefore islam can be considered a cult more than a religion.
If u refute these facts, please be my guest, I am open for your feedback.

45 comments:

  1. Defining factor, if you leave Islam, you are subject to be killed. If born into a muslim family, you are trapped in a religion even if it is not one you do not believe in. If born in a muslim country you are forced to follow the rules of Islam and there is no converting out. The only way out is to escape the country or through death.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Nabil it's Muslim :) how're you doing?

    What's you point in this post? to whom it's directed? Muslims or the non Muslims? Are you trying to mislead non Muslims as usual?

    Call it a cult or call it a religion of God. No one will slap you on your hand and force you to submit to God and become a good Muslim.
    We devote our life’s for Allah, we know our religion and the more we see posts like these the closer we get together :) peace

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  3. If one can leave islam with no threat of death, how does that explain apostates being killed in islamic countries?
    Are they using a different koran?

    ReplyDelete
  4. Muslim4allah u know my point of this post and u know exactly to whom it is directed, however i think one more time u r trying to avoid the answer. and why do u think i am trying to mislead anyone, I made the post and i challenged anyone to prove me wrong or refute, i posted facts and truth if u can prove otherwise then be my guest. I was hoping for a real debate and challenge but i feel that u chose the easy way out. well I have plenty more topics, u can pick from and discuss, have u read the Jaafar story? the honor killing? not all arabs are failures, and all the new and old topics, I am hoping that u would go deeper and address these topics and get a debate going, but if u dont i still understand, Its hard to deal with these issues, Muslim, I am hoping that u would remove the blinders, and i am hoping u stop the denial and avoiding the real debate. I am sure u can do better than this, u just lack the courage to address these issues. I hope u r up for the challenge.

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  5. I find that your problem is mainly on the issue of killing apostates. So I’ll make this modest effort to explain it.
     
    That the early Islamic state was built on the idea of total submission to God through the teachings found on the Quran and Sunna (Sharia). And whoever announces his conversion and start bashing Islam is treated as a threat to the state and Muslims security, therefore the governor can do whatever he see fit for a punishment for the apostates after giving them one last chance to repent. Whether it’s death, jail, or expelled outside the Islamic community. This way is competently fair and helped stop the “fake conversions” that the Jews and Christians and pagans used to do as an attempt to do mischief and confuse less-educated Muslims in the land of Islam through lies and fake conversions. We still witness those exposed fake conversions technique. For proof see the following links, anyone with basic knowledge of Islam and little Arabic can see it clearly

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRhdRlTIHBQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDyOaCJ3t0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2ptHGscq4U&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BYvtyXBXw4&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygXvvHNh_YU&feature=related
     
    As for Jaafar or anyone else I don’t know what’s in their hearts I can’t judge them. But from my reading on your post his conversion I see it’s mostly based on emotions and feelings and visual miracles or hallucinations, irrational, And was not based on reason and study. I can’t judge him based on my reading that is limited to your post.
    There are converts who did it for money and materialistic benefits or fame. And there are those who converted only because Islam doesn’t fit their poor ethics. And there are those who weren’t even Muslims and don’t even know how to pray like president Obama. And there are those who are already seculars like Dr wafa Sultan. And not to forget those who are born in a Shia Family or a Sufism or Qadiany or seculars or any of those sects that don’t follow the Quran correctly and claim they are Muslims.
     
    I’m not saying there are no converts from Islam to Christianity or atheism or Satanism or voodoo. I’m only saying that religion is a matter of personal choice

    Islam only encourage anyone not to become a Muslim unless he’s absolutely convinced that Islam is the true religion of God through searching, studying, applying reason and Logic. We believe converts should never join Islam unless they are 100000000000% certain of it as the true religion of God. That’s how a sound decision can be made. That how we expect our new community members to be.

    Blindness and brainwashing thorough stories such as “convert to Christianity because Jaafar saw Jesus in the sky with his own eyes and I promise he wasn’t drinking” stories like that may work in the Christian community but it is not accepted in Islam :)
     
    Quran17:81 “And say: Truth has come and falsehood, has vanished. Surely! Falsehood is ever bound to vanish."
    Peace

    ReplyDelete
  6. Muslim4Allah, I cant help but laugh at your response, funny how u contradict yourself in more than one way and over and over, lets start with :
    "the governor can do whatever he see fit for a punishment for the apostates after giving them one last chance to repent. Whether it’s death, jail, or expelled"
    what happened to what ur quran tells u "la Ikrah fil deen?Let there be no compulsion in religion

    then u say "confuse less-educated Muslims in the land of Islam through lies and fake conversions" I think at that time all muslims were illiterate including mohammad, and what land of islam, how did the land become muslim land?


    the u talk about fake conversions and what a joke, what is a fake conversion? u mean when a christian converts so he can marry a muslimah?lol yes that is fake to me. but i can assure u that people like jaafar had no interest in leaving islam and becoming a christian and no he was not paid nor did he do it for any personal gain.

    then u say "I see it’s mostly based on emotions and feelings and visual miracles or hallucinations, irrational, And was not based on reason and study" tell me when jibriel appeard to mohammad could that have been hallucinations as well, where is the reason and logic and the studies on these mohammad illusions and delusions , but i tell u , i am also not into believing of seeing angels and and, but if i had to pick on who to believe more, mohammad or Jaafar, i would say jaafar.

    then u say "those who converted only because Islam doesn’t fit their poor ethics"
    I also know some with poor ethics that convert to islam because they dont accept christian ethics like Michael Jackson who prefers to have children and boys, didnt mohammad have a child for a bride at 6 yr old and he was 54?

    and u say "There are converts who did it for money and materialistic benefits or fame."
    funny u said that, rumor says the saudis pay people to convert to islam? true or not, and what fam do u get if u leave islam, usually u lose all ur family and friends and u can lose ur life. like jaafar did, so what fam did he get? ZERO.

    and u say "become a Muslim unless he’s absolutely convinced that Islam is the true religion of God through searching, studying, applying reason and Logic."
    the question is ,is there reason and logic in islam? what r they? where is the proof, how can u convince someone?


    then u say "Blindness and brainwashing thorough stories such as “convert to Christianity because Jaafar saw Jesus in the sky with his own eyes and I promise he wasn’t drinking” stories like that may work in the Christian community but it is not accepted in Islam"
    again Blindness and Brainwashing are not too far from Islam, are they? and let me assure u when Jesus appeared to jaafar he WAS muslim and no he did not drink and he does not even drink now.

    finally u say "stories like that may work in the Christian community but it is not accepted in Islam"
    how did u believe the story of mohammad where he made himself a prophet? did u buy that story? oh I forgot when it comes to mohammad there were always exceptions. :)

    looking forward to your feedback.

    ReplyDelete
  7. muslim4allah
    I read your posts and the first thingthat came to mind is your explanation for killing apostates.
    I read them, and understood them. But no where did I read that you or islam in general, no longer supports killing for apostates. In such, and I correct to understand, that you support this?
    And am I correct in understanding that apostate killings still goes on today?
    Please explain.
    i'll be back.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Nabil,Blackjack, If a man choose to convert it’s his decision to make. No one else have any right to force him to take a religion or convert back ever EVER.EVER.EVER.EVER x 10^10000000

    That is supported by the verse you mentioned. Freedom of faith is part of our test in this life.

    I believe if a Muslim state (land and people) declared that their laws and constitution is the Quran, If a man publicly declared his apostasy, in the eyes of Muslim rulers he is doing the following :

    1-whether he never been a muslim and faked being an ex-muslim, or not, his apostasy means he publicly suggests Islam is false, by going public he is indirectly falsefying the state's SOURCE of laws and order (the Quran and sunna) therefore rejecting the laws of the state and is criminalized by the governors.
    2-He is provoking Muslims feelings, and will eventually cause unwanted violence and disrupts peace. (imagine a Muslim propagate Islam in a church or a synagogue or a Zionists conference number of them will get angry and start violence).
    3-He had a choice of keeping his apostasy for himself Or go outside the Muslims state and declare his apostasy, instead he decided to go public AND inside Muslims state that reveals his intentions of disrupting peace and going against the states laws. therefore criminalized.
    4-He already knows the Law of criminalizing apostasy. Therefore his punishment is fit.

    Early Islamic states did punish the apostates. And had low tolerance towards the apostates mainly in the early days when Islam was still under the threat of neighboring countries, it is viewed as an act of ((treason)). And that changed in the later Islamic state when it settled.

    In the current days there is no De facto Islamic States. There are Muslims communities but no Islamic state (compared to the earlier Islamic states model 7th century to the 20th century ).
    But when in-sha-allah an Islamic state appears. and the rulers thought that (publicly self announced apostates) are criminalized, we’d accept that if they thought it’s fair and Islamicly proved, and is executed by the legal system not by the citizens. Just the same as how we’d accept all the laws of that state. Otherwise we’d go against the rulers as the highest form of Jihad. (to speak the truth against a tyrant ruler)

    so to answer you I say I support any punishment to apostates who breaks states laws by declaring his apostasy. only if it's under the government of the de facto islamic state, and is carried on by the legal system(not individuals) Exactly Just as I support any laws that will protect the freedom and security and peace of Muslims and non-muslims inside the islamic state.

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  9. I thought I should clear out the most important source of confusion to most non muslims on this issue.

    The penalty of apostates is death. He is already sentenced to death because of his act of treason (letting people know he's apostate). The apostate is not offered Islam to escape death. this is not forcing him to be a muslim…. Lost? I'll explain.
    It's well know rule In Muslim battle, If a Muslim fighter won a fight and was about to kill the non muslim fighter, but the non-muslim shout out:" I became a Muslim", the muslim then can never kill the non-muslim, even if he knows the non-muslim is faking it because we never know what's in his heart. I can show clear proof from Quran and sunnah text.
    The exact same thing happens towards the apostate. He is condemned to death. And offered time and lessons to think about Islam. If he announced he found Islam and submit to God, and repent, then the executer can not kill the apostate. Even if he is lying. Only because we can never know if he's lying or being honest.

    In short, the death penalty is sentenced and is final, the offered time is not to let him choose between Islam or death, It's only to give him the last chance to look seriously about Islam (offered lessons on Islam if he left Islam out of ignorance), if he was a liar and says I'm a Muslim now, then it's his problem and God will punish him for lying to escape death and for not submitting to God. an honest man would never change his religion just to escape death. An honest man would welcome death and becoming a martyr.

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  10. Nabil... Comparing Jaafar to Muhammad peace be upon him is incorrect mainly for the following reason, Jaafar did not claim he’s a prophet, while Mohammad did.
    I honestly don't know if christianity teaches that normal people can see visualy God or talk to God and get revelations. but we Muslims believe only a prophet can make a direct contact with God or the messenger of God “Gibrail”. Since Jaafar is neither a prophet, nor he claim he is, then the matter of seeing prophet Jesus peace be upon is false.

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  11. muslim4allah, let me ask u in all 3 or 4 posts u made do u honestly think u answered objectively and were u honest in your answers, let me tell u, u went in circles, u posted a lot of mumbo jumbo , gibberish and nonsense and u changed subjects i think u confused yourself more than u confused others, u did a good job in avoiding answers and i sensed u were lost and confused, or maybe it was intentional to avoid answering, regardless, u did a poor job, i was hoping u would produce the evidence, the logic and reason that u only talk about and fail to produce.I asked u many specific question and u simply lumped everything together to pretend u r answering when in fact u said nothing.
    but i still reached few conclusions from what u posted, u still support and approve killing apostates , u tried to separate it from islam and say its the state / law, which is nonsense because u dont separate islam from the state law when u r using shariaa, so lets be clear, u r calling for 1 ummah, that uses sharia and sharia will enforce punishment by death to apostates.
    then i asked u to produce logic, and reason on how mohammad is prophet, where is the evidence and who made him prophet, didnt he make himself, and who said God only appears and talks to prophets, who decided that, now we will decide for God on what to do? I think if he is a God , he can decide for his own and no one decides for him, so if he chose to appear to jaafar can u tell him, no he cant?
    muslim4allah, I know its not so easy to answer all my questions from my last posted comment and this one, but can u try again and please try to be honest with yourself and us, and please be objective, provide, evidence, reason and logic,common and literal sense . and dont go in circles, be clear and specific. is it possible to do all these things?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Apostates of islam get killed because muslims are afraid they will expose islam for what it is to the outside world: a cult of terror. The fact alone that you cannot leave the cult without risking your life is by itself a terror tactic. Islam is fear, fear and fear. You're afraid of your muslim neighbours, your muslim sibbligs, your muslim friends etc.. Anyone who could accuse you of not being islamic enough, or having done something haraam.

    That's how your islamic leaders stay in power. Divide and rule. They scare the shit out of you, keep you in check using peer pressure. You're not only afraid of Allah (which is stupid because there is no evidence he exists) you're also afraid of fellow muslims. You're not closely knit. You're each other's spies.

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  13. Firangi4u, are you an atheist? I got that impression from your post. We share no common ground with atheists, how can you explain the morality of a sentence and ethics to one who believes in nothing? I hope you get my point.

    Nabilchi, I’m not separating anything from islam, the Islamic laws Sharia should be organized and applied by the official legal system not by the hands of any one, and there are laws that are strict, and there are laws that is left for the judge to decide which is best.
    If you wish for evidence and a better explanation about the apostates issue I’ll have to refer you to a known Muslim scholar.
    http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article02.shtml

    As for how Prophet Muhammad is made prophet. The simple logical answer is, his everlasting miracle, the proof the message of the ((((((((((((((The Quran)))))))))))))))))))
    Quran 4:82” Do they not then consider the Qur'ân carefully? Had it been from other than Allâh, they would surely have found therein many a contradiction.”
    The Quran proves itself as a word of God. what kind of a book that challenge everyone to find errors?
    while all books quickly fall apart in self contradictions. Not to go into other details, at least that’s how I believed the final prophet. Unless Jaafar or anyone else who claims he made direct contact with God brings proof, he’s either a liar or hallucinating. Either ways we’ll meet in a few years when this life ends and we’ll see who’s right. Try to enjoy these few years and be patient :)

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  14. "No one will slap you on your hand and force you to submit to God and become a good Muslim."

    No - but they WILL behead you with a dull sword. We've seen that; nothing is more barbaric.

    "stories like that may work in the Christian community but it is not accepted in Islam"

    That's because Christianity is open and free and islam is repressive and violent.

    "provoking Muslims feelings, and will eventually cause unwanted violence and disrupts peace"

    Why? Why can't muslims be provoked without resorting to violence?

    "imagine a Muslim propagate Islam in a church or a synagogue or a Zionists conference number of them will get angry and start violence)"

    No. That wouldn't happen because CIVLIZED PEOPLE don't behave that way. If a muslim propagated islam where it wasn't wanted (which is pretty much everywhere) he would be asked POLITELY to leave. If he refused, the Police would be called to remove him.

    "In the current days there is no De facto Islamic States"

    Wrong again. There are 57 islamic states.

    Google "The Organization of Islamic Conference Member States" or go to this link (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/oicstates1.html) to see them.

    "the death penalty is sentenced and is final, the offered time is not to let him choose between Islam or death, It's only to give him the last chance to look seriously about Islam (offered lessons on Islam if he left Islam out of ignorance)"

    So much for there being "no compulsion" in religion. "Choose islam or choose death." Sounds like pretty strong compulsion to me!

    "You're not closely knit. You're each other's spies."

    Exactly right. Family members turn in other family members. Families kill female rape victims because they've "dishonoured" the family by being victims of brutal rapes.

    "Freedom of faith is part of our test in this life."

    Do you have to use quite a large shovel when you throw around that much shit?

    Our ONLY purpose in this life is to LIVE. There is no test.

    "Islamic laws Sharia should be organized and applied by the official legal system"

    Not in MY country. NOT EVER! Keep your Sharia law in your islamic shit holes. We have our own ways here that are civilized, fair and humane. We have no wish to become barbaric savages. We left that life when we moved out of caves 20,000 years ago.

    "God only appears and talks to prophets, who decided that, now we will decide for God on what to do? I think if he is a God, he can decide for his own and no one decides for him"

    I talk to God every day. Does that make me a prophet? Maybe it does. After all, if a liar, looter, rapist, murderer and pedophile can be a prophet, I would be a shoo-in.

    "The Quran proves itself as a word of God."

    No. It doesn't. If it was PROVEN BEYOND ANY DOUBT to be the world of God, every person on Earth would follow it. But they don't. And they won't. And, given the actions of muslims in the world today, islam will continue to be one of the most shunned organizations on Earth for a very long time.

    Mohammed invented islam as a means to control and oppress people, especially women, and to steal the wealth of others.

    "anyone else who claims he made direct contact with God brings proof, he’s either a liar or hallucinating."

    Like mohammed was. With Acromegaly, Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, Bi-Polar Disorder, Schizophrenia, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and Syphilis, how could he have seen anything BUT hallucinations?

    "we’ll meet in a few years when this life ends"

    You won't meet ME there. I'm going where dogs go. Most dogs are more human than most humans and I choose to spend eternity with them. I will NOT go where there is even one muslim lunatic.

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  15. "Firangi4u, are you an atheist? I got that impression from your post. We share no common ground with atheists, how can you explain the morality of a sentence and ethics to one who believes in nothing? I hope you get my point."

    Yes I'm an atheist. You are making an argument from morality, by claiming that because I'm an atheist I'm allegedly immoral. who said morals have to come from god? What are morals in the first place? Define it! If you say it has to come from a god then prove your god exists in the first place.

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  16. I’m not arguing you here, I don’t actually wish to speak about atheism, it’s not the topic here. but because you asked I’ll tell you what I personally believe so don’t be offended.

    All atheists are immoral for denying God who created everything. And for ignoring all logic and claiming that they follow logic.

    Same logic that says a thing cannot come from nothing. And you are a thing by the way. That’s it.

    Atheists moralities are: life is a not a test, we won’t be judged hereafter and no afterlife, let’s do whatever we want to do. And survival is for the fittest.
    Whatever rules an atheist sets for himself, sooner or later on an emotional day maybe or under an uncontrollable desire, he’ll realize that all of these rules are an illusion just as life. That kind of moralities are also an illusion.

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  17. I'd like to know who muslims are to judge anyone. The barbarism of which islam is capable is inconceivable by moral human beings - but it's true. Muslims do things to other people that only demons would do - we've all seen the videos of muslims beheading people. Nothing could be more savage.

    Who are you to say that I'm an atheist just because I know that life is not a test? I also don't believe in a "hereafter". If you insist that I'm wrong, then I challenge you to PROOVE it - and saying, "It's true because the quran says so." ISN'T proof.

    Evolution is a fact; survival of the fittest is the basis of that fact. If it wasn't, the species alive today would have died out long ago.

    ReplyDelete
  18. "And when it was said that the promise of Allah was true, and that the Hour- there was no doubt about its (coming), ye used to say, 'We know not what is the hour: we only think it is an idea, and we have no firm assurance.'"

    This is God’s pre answer to you in his Final testament “Quran”.

    birdy, The judgment day is a future event. It’s IMPOSSIBLE IMPOSSIBLE IMPOSSIBLE to prove it or even know about it unless we are told by God , We can philosophize about it but we can never know it for sure unless we’re told by the creator that's how we get certaine. we don't accept risking our future on mere philosophy. If you believe in God and his perfect justice and his books you’ll know it for sure. If you don’t even believe in God then it’s useless to talk about justice, the hour, angels, paradise and hell. You must first know God. The mind is a sufficient guide to reach God and to verify which book is his, and which is manmade.

    Nabil i hope you don't mind me answering him off topic :)

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  19. Muslim4Aallah, since u seem to be so convinced that muslims are the only ones in the world with morals, can u explain their barbaric behavior, the violence and terror they commit, the killing, hijacking, beheading, all the evil and hate acts, where are these morals that u r talking about. and dont u think the days of the prophet were not any better, in fact his behavior may have been worse, with the wars and rapes he committed and even the pedophile behavior when he decided to marry a 6 yr old child, just wondering where his morals were?
    can u give us a convincing answer. try to be straight forward, specific and to the point,and clear. provide proof and evidence and be objective. I know the rope is getting tight on ur neck and u r about to hang yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Nabil, I’ll be more than happy to answer you :)
    I don’t know where you got that age of 6, next thing you’ll tell me she was 1 month old. That confirms my doubts about the authenticity of your sources and how much trust you put in them :)

    Perhaps it’s best to read about the prophet’s biography from an Islamic source.

    Did you know that Lady Aisha was 9 when she married according to Muslim sources (not Quran nor sunnah).
    Did you know that Lady Aisha was 18 when she married according to Muslim sources (not Quran nor sunnah).
    Do I have to remind you that Virgin Mary peace be upon her was 12 when married 90 years old Joseph?
    Where is the truth? It’s a long and interesting subject, I don’t like to copy and paste. So I’ll only refer you to this site which wills convince those who seek the truth.

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

    If you don’t want the truth I can understand that and you may continue reading about Islam from Islam-haters sources nad continue being misled and a misleader.

    As for evil Muslims. their barbaric behavior, the violence and terror they commit, the killing, hijacking, beheading and all the evil and hate acts. I can say exactly the same on Christians, and I can post you a photo of a well known priest who committed awful crimes; does that mean Christianity approves it?
    Islam is against all that. That includes misbehaved Muslims stories that you garnish your blogs with their photos.

    This is my direct and simple response. Try to be fair and read stories from both sides. And I promise you’ll begin to see the goodness in life and truth :)

    ReplyDelete
  21. If muslims are truly against the violence, murder, oppression and pedophilia commited in the name of islam, why do they NEVER say so publicly? Why do they never denounce the acts of terrorists? Why do they never ex-communicate them and say that islam is a religion of peace and won't tolerate the behaviour of terrorists?

    I can answer my own questions. It's because the majority of muslims, though they may not have the courage to behave like islamic terrorists, nonetheless agree with their actions.

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  22. birdy, I’m not surprised that you may actually believe that we don’t condemn these acts. It’s not our fault if your media managed to blind you from all of our statements denouncing each act committed by Muslims in the name of Islam. Your question reveals how much effort your governments and media put against Islam and Muslims.

    Anyway, here’s your request, these are samples of the publicly published by official Islamic organizations statements against terrorist acts that are immediately issued right after those acts committed by outcast Muslims against the teachings of Islam. In official news papers and online. (singed, dated, photocopied, published)

    American Muslim organizations:
    “We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.”
    Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001 www.icna.org
    http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_a_few_quotes/0012273


    Shaykh Abdulaziz Al-Asheikh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
    The London attacks, "targeting peaceful people, are not condoned by Islam, and are indeed prohibited by our religion. ... Attributing to Islam acts of individual or collective killings, bombings, destruction of properties and the terrorizing of peaceful people is unfair, because they are alien to the divine religion."
    Fatwa-Online, July 9, 2005, http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0050709.htm


    The steering committee and members of the AAR's Study of Islam section issued a statement which said, in part:
    Statement from scholars of the Islamic religion 2001-SEP-17
    “We are grief-stricken at the horrifying events of this past week. Yet as scholars of the Islamic religion, we must take time from our grief, and the counseling of our students, to help prevent the continuing persecution of Muslims on American soil. The attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center are nothing short of murder. Those office workers did nothing wrong, nothing to deserve such a terrible fate, and the murder of innocents can never be justified and must not be tolerated. Anger and frustration at the death of these men and women are completely understandable and shared by us all, yet that anger must not be directed at individuals utterly innocent of these terrible crimes...”
    http://www.alhewar.org/SEPTEMBER%2011/us_and_canadian_scholars.htm
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter16.htm

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  23. Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader:
    “Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. ... You can't kill innocent people…" http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm


    Islamway website:
    "In light of these and other Islamic texts, the act of inciting terror in the hearts of defenseless civilians, the wholesale destruction of buildings and properties, the bombing and maiming of innocent men, women, and children are all forbidden and detestable acts according to Islam and the Muslims."
    "What Does Islam Say About Terrorism?" http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=126


    Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
    “The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
    http://www.alquds.co.uk:9090/pdf/2001/09Sep/14%20Sep%20Fri/Quds02.pdf


    Denouncing Khomeini fatwa of killing Salman rushdi (satanic verse author)
    “Other Islamic scholars outside of Iran took issue with the fact that the sentence was not passed by an Islamic court, or that it did not limit its “jurisdiction only [to] countries under Islamic law.” Muhammad Hussan ad-Din, a theologian at Al-Azhar University, argued "Blood must not be shed except after a trial [when the accused has been] given a chance to defend himself and repent." Abdallah al-Mushidd, head of Azhar's Fatwa Council stated "We must try the author in a legal fashion of Islam does not accept killing as a legal instrument."
    http://medlibrary.org/medwiki/The_Satanic_Verses_controversy#cite_note-rel-50


    Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkish author:
    “Islam does not encourage any kind of terrorism; in fact, it denounces it. Those who use terrorism in the name of Islam, in fact, have no other faculty except ignorance and hatred.”
    Harun Yahya, “Islam Denounces Terrorism,” http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com


    Quran 60:8” Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.”

    Sayings of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh):
    "The most excellent jihad (struggle) is that for the conquest of self."

    "Whoever suppresseth his anger, when he has it in his power to show it, God will give him a great reward."

    "Do you love your Creator? Love your fellow beings first."

    "Wish not or supplicate for death before its time cometh."

    My only advice to you is to trust no one, don’t let anyone feed you the news, get the truth by yourself for yourself, from both sides. The internet is not owned by anyone :)

    ReplyDelete
  24. Muslim4Allah u r one funny guy, lets start with your earlier post to me, what u had done there is compare apples to oranges, when u compare muslim terror that randomly targets innocent civilians and children and they commit their barbaric acts in the name of islam and as instructed in the quran, thats the inspiration and then u talk about a twisted priest who commits evil / crime, thats an individual act not inspired by the bible or the religion or christianity.
    then u talk about Yousef and mariam 9virgin mary), first 12 and 6 are 2 different ages, second yousef did not marry mary for sex ,and we all know the virgin did not conceive by Jesus by sex but a miracle, on the other hand mohammad married aisha for the sex, and yes he married her at 6 , and he consummated his marriage at age 9. so in ur 2 examples u failed to compare apple to apple. but again its typical as u go to these islamic web sites and dig these pre tailored answers that are nothing but excuses and justification and nonsense. maybe its time to use ur head, and use the logic, reason and common sense that u talk about.
    In your answer to birdy and specifically in one of the evidence u used by Shaykh Abdulaziz Al-Asheikh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia, his answer was nothing more than denial and trying to say these are not muslims.here is his sentence "Attributing to Islam acts of individual or collective killings, bombings, destruction of properties and the terrorizing of peaceful people is unfair, because they are alien to the divine religion."
    and I love the defense of Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader: "And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims," I love that IF there, can u explain that IF? sounds like denial again, isnt it?

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  25. Does anyone see the irony in muslim4? First he says apostate killing is due to treason and has nothing to do with the religion yet leaving the religion of islam is what makes the person an apostate in the first place. Hmmm????
    Then he says islam is peaceful and goes on to explain how u can be on death row and only be spared if u accept islam????? I think muslim4 has been smoking some laced hookah.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Nabil thanks for the complement I hope I’m still welcomed as a guest :)
    I presented the Lady Aisha article, I think it is sufficient response to your misconception. Whether you fail to understand it or didn’t read it, it’s your choice my messege is to only show you the truth, I can't force you to accept it. I already got positive results from christens readers about that issue and I think it made sense because they actually read it objectively. That’s all I have to say about that subject.

    I’d like to inform you that I don’t conceder Joseph nor lady Mary parents as immortals, and I believe in Jesus miraculous birth. I love them more than any Christian and I pray to meet them in the judgment day.


    About the Hamza Yousef IF, I think he said that because he doubt that it was a Muslim planning, just like many American non-muslim also believe I know because I’ve watch their theories on YouTube. At least at that time.
    Try not to focus on what did he mean by if, the important thing is these are hard proofs of Muslim position and statements made to denounce these acts, Anyway I only posted samples of the statement made by well known Muslims figures and Organization to show (birdy) that we did renounced these actions since he thought we did not. And I have so much more I just don’t want to flood your blog.


    Patriot, no I never smoked anything in my life and never will if it’s God will :)
    This article might help you resolve your confusion fo sure. “Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam?” http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article02.shtml

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  27. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Muslim4Allah are you seriously trying to deny the penalty for apostasy when it is made clear in the Koran?

    004.089
    YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
    PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
    SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    I can not believe you are trying to pass this lie off unto us, after our dealings with the Islamic Academy in Virginia to change their High School Text Books because they are teaching to kill those who leave Islam based off of this verse.

    Here is what the problem with Islam is. The Koran is written in classical arabic, which omits vowels and makes it damn impossible to tell exactly what the Koran is saying, so much for Allah making it plan and simple. So you have some muslims claiming verses do not hold such extremism and mean something else, while you have other muslims claiming they do and teach violence, hate, and intolerance.

    Don't tell me I don't know Arabic, therefore I don't know what I am talking about. Because my friend on youtube that makes many vids does know Arabic and has muslims arguing with him that the Koran is in classic Arabic so it is impossible to know what the Koran is saying without the tafsirs.

    So tell me what the tafsirs say about apostasy. I have already looked up a few and have found that some do say to kill those that leave Islam.

    Would you like for to spend some time and pull up the most widely used and post what they say?

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  29. "God forbids you not, WITH REGARDS TO THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU NOT FOR [YOUR] FAITH nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just." (Qur'an, 60:8) 


    As you can see I have highlighted the most important part of the verse you quoted, it allows this verse in question to exclude ALL non Muslims.
    Your Qur’an says that Jews and Christians are apes and pigs and it states that Allah hates all non Muslims, in light of those facts why would Allah have you be kind to us apes and pigs?

    ReplyDelete
  30. Oh and don't forget, there are plenty of Sahih Hadith sources too

    Bukhari V9B83N17:
    Narrated 'Abdullah:
    Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."


    Bukhari 84:57 "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

    Bukhari 52.260 - if a Muslim changes his religion, Kill him.

    Bukhari V9, B84, N57:
    Narrated 'Ikrima:
    Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

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  31. "I’m not arguing you here, I don’t actually wish to speak about atheism, it’s not the topic here."

    You were the one bringing up my atheism as an excuse not to answer me.

    "All atheists are immoral for denying God who created everything. And for ignoring all logic and claiming that they follow logic."

    Argument from morality fallacy. You have to prove that god exists to claim that not believing in god is immoral. Moreover, you theists are the ones who claim you are logical. You have no right to say that atheists are illogical when rationality is all they abide by.


    "Atheists moralities are: life is a not a test, we won’t be judged hereafter and no afterlife, let’s do whatever we want to do. And survival is for the fittest."

    Theists arguments are that life is a test but they cannot prove it. Why would I blindly believe it just because your "holy" books say so when no evidence backs the assertions made by them? And don't claim you understand evolution by throwing in some incomplete information that is part of Darwin's theory. BTW, Natural Selection, if that is what you meant by survival of the fittest, is an observed fact. It has nothing to do with the morality of atheists.

    "Whatever rules an atheist sets for himself, sooner or later on an emotional day maybe or under an uncontrollable desire, he’ll realize that all of these rules are an illusion just as life. That kind of moralities are also an illusion."

    Your god is an illusion.

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  32. Fury, let’s read the whole verses in order to understand it correctly I’ll assume that you missed them not deliberately. I’ll try not to interpret your action as an attempt to take it out of context and I’ll deal with your deed as an action of haste and copy paste from anti-Islam sources.

    [88] Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allâh has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allâh has made to go astray? And he whom Allâh has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).
    [89] They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad (peace be upon him)) But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.
    [90] Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allâh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allâh has opened no way for you against them.
    [91] You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.

    Who are those hypocrites? Are they specific group of people in a specific period of history? or in general any hypocrite? Read the whole verses in order. And To save myself time, I’m going to use my fellow Muslim’s answers to Islamophobe Greet. http://norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/fitna-debunked/

    The hypocrites that are mentioned in verse 88 are referring to the hypocrites who were alive during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). What these men would do was disguise themselves as Muslims, to basically act like infiltrators in order to cause confusion and chaos. They wanted to break the Muslim community from within.

    So due to this fact Allah gave the Muslims the permission to fight these hypocrites. However it is important to take note that since Allah is very merciful He still gives these hypocrites a chance as He says:

    “…So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad (peace be upon him)) But if they turn back (from Islâm),…. “

    Notice if these hypocrites stopped behaving the way they did and had a pure heart, then they would have been forgiven and no war would have been waged upon them. However, if they persisted then the Muslims would have a legitimate reason to fight these people.

    These hypocrites are no different than an army who sends an infiltrator to an opposing army to act like one of them as to get information, basically like a spy, as well as carrying out sabotage acts to break the opposing army.

    The Muslims were forced to act on these hypocrites because that is exactly what they were.

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  33. Therefore to summarize:

    1-The Quranic command is specifically referring to HYPOCRITES who infiltrate the Muslim community and act like Muslims only to spy on them and to break the community from within.

    2-The hypocrites are still to be given a chance to repent before war is waged upon them, hence war is not the first option. The hypocrites are given a chance as Allah is merciful.

    3-The passage was revealed in a historical period when there were hypocrites who were infiltrating the Muslim community during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

    http://norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/fitna-debunked/

    Should we slay them all? Not if they wanted peace with Muslims. Read verses 90-91. the verse speaks for itself. God is great. if you wish to know better continue reading until the verse 94. Peace from the religion of Peace
    That’s what I was saying, you have to believe in God before believing in his books that speaks about the judgment day and the purpose of life as a test.

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  34. Peter, read the verse again:
    Quran60:8 “Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.”

    If it exclude all non-muslims then who are those who we’re not forbidden to deal justly and kindly with?
    From the verse those who (((((fought not against you on account of religion))))), meaning any non-Muslim who FIGHT us because of our faith are not included, therefore is not worthy of dealing with them in justice and kindly and in equality. Perhaps I should post different translation of that same verse for you to understand better.

    Quran60:8
    YUSUFALI: Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
    PICKTHAL: Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.
    SHAKIR: Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

    Perhaps it’s a great shock to you to discover such verses, I understand, the effort against Islam is so great , but will soon parish as more dialog and communication and understanding among humanity.

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  35. Firangi, That’s what I was saying, you have to believe in God before believing in his books that speaks about the judgment day and the purpose of life as a test.

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  36. Zero, Peter has provided you with four Hadiths from Bukari which is considered the most reliable Hadiths under the Sunni faith. I can provide you with two more if you wish saying to kill those who leave Islam.

    First let's get something straight, there are no historical records about Mohammad from Mohammads time. None, zilch. He is missing from every historians record. Primary basis for Muhammad Sven Kalisch, a Muslim convert and Germany's first professor of Islamic theology to conclude Mohammad more than likely did not exist.

    Therefore Islams little fairy tales it concocted that these apostates were guilty of treason, are more than likely written centuries after the supposed occurrence and have no historical proof. So unless you can find a historian who lived during these times who kept impeccable records and witnessed this as proof, then don't even bring the argument to the table.

    Second, irregardless of what further verses say after 4:89 there are corroborating verses in Bukari that say to kill those that leave Islam that do not adhere to the further verses you presented.

    In fact, when doing some research I came across a historical article that stated the killing of apostates where common place in Islam until the 19th Century through European pressure or direct European rule.

    Even to this very day several Islamic countries carry the death penalty or imprisonment if one converts out of Islam due to these verses. Since your Koran is written in classical Arabic and incomprehensible to even Arabic readers, the Hadiths and Tafsirs are used to decipher and make sense out of the Koran, which clearly state to kill those who leave Islam.

    One last point, I have also came across many Islamic Cleric writings through out Islamic history while researching that advocate and explain the Koran does call for killing apostates. It would be to exhausting for me to copy and paste all this info on this blog. But I am quite sure you are aware of these rulings. It is the typical schizophrenia of Islam. You have cleric that say it Koranic teaching to kill apostates and others that say it is Koranic teaching to not kill apostates. Hence, the reason Islam is in such the disarray it is today. The Koran is wide open to much interpretation.

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  37. Allow me to clarify something above, the killing of apostates were commonplace in Islam until the 19th Century which only ceased due to European pressure or direct European rule.

    Still yet, it has come today when Arabia and other muslims countries were given their Independence from European rule.

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  38. Fury, I’ve proved how you took the verse out of its proper context to suits your theories of killing apostates only because they left Islam and for no other reason.
    Then you ignored my post and said:” First let's get something straight, there are no historical records about Mohammad from Mohammads time. None, zilch. He is missing from every historians record. Primary basis for Muhammad Sven Kalisch, a Muslim convert and Germany's first professor of Islamic theology to conclude Mohammad more than likely did not exist.
    Therefore Islams little fairy tales it concocted that these apostates were guilty of treason, are more than likely written centuries after the supposed occurrence and have no historical proof. So unless you can find a historian who lived during these times who kept impeccable records and witnessed this as proof, then don't even bring the argument to the table.”
    So now I’m supposed to believe a self claim (ex Muslim) “professor” of Islamic theology that Prophet Muhammad don’t exist and Islam is a fairy tale?. I’m not sure what kind of impeccable record you mean to receive as prove. A signed photo maybe? It seems to me that you’re only seeking arguments.
    With all due respect I’m speechless, I have nothing constructive to further to add, except that I’ll only refer you to these sites if you wish to read about the issue and the relating Hadith. Peace :)

    http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article02.shtml##4

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  39. Nabil, I hope you don't get upset for flooding your blog ;)

    I'm going to apologies to you all if I said any word that hurt any of you. I'm going to leave for now I've got so much work now in my hands, maybe later I'll come back and share you few more interesting discussions. I really enjoyed my time with you all. May God reward us according to our intentions and I wish guidance. Peace.

    Muslim4Allah

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  40. Muslim4allah first of all u r always welcome here in my blog and dont worry u r not flooding it, thats the idea of the blog and third no need for apology, i think the debate with u is always civil and responsible , not that we always get clear and straight forward answers from u, but for the most part its a good debate. the only thing is i wished that u did not refer to these web sites with the pre packaged answers and i preferred if u used logic, common sense and reason u always referred to instead of running to these sites, after all we all have brains and we can use them, we do not need to have someone else think for us and hold our hands, thats the only reservation i have, but again, i think u r bombarded with so many facts and i can imagine that u have to run for help rather than accept the facts and question the religion, because once u reach that point then u would automatically be on the right tracks , we understand islam brainwash people and u r not allowed to question anything because u can be threatened , so u would rather defend and use all the tactics they taught u.
    we hope to keep the debate going, i hope u r not trying to run, hide or escape,lol we are not done yet, we have a lot more to talk about.

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  41. Zero you did not prove anything. Until you can provide actual historical evidence of why apostates left Islam and how Mohammad dealt with them, you have no argument. I already know you can not, the reason you are speechless, because no such actual historical record written at the time of Mohammad exist. Actually no historical record of Mohammad and Islam during his life time exist by any historian. No academic scholar, historian, or archaeologist can present such record. The earliest verses of the Koran does not even exist until 60 years after his supposed death and they do not even initially mention Mohammad. Face it, the earliest historical mention of Mohammad was not until after everyone that supposedly knew him had already died. Even then it was only that he was the messenger. The accounts of his life started around 150 years later. Bring me an actual credible historical account and then we will discuss the validity of him killing apostates for treason. Don't bring me something written two centuries later claiming the were guilty of treason when the common practice of killing apostates for leaving Islam existed up till the 19th Century.

    Bring facts with historical evidence, not fairy tale stories.

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  42. fury"the common practice of killing apostates for leaving Islam existed up till the 19th Century. "
    just a minor correction, the killing of apostates never stopped and still exists till today the 21st century, i gave many example of people who were killed. The Lebanese guy Al Rifaai, the Jordanian girl killed by her father, the saudi girl killed by her father and many others, u can find all these stories in this blog earlier, in Jan and Feb and March. killing apostates started in the days of mohammad and still on going. i dont know how Muslim4Allah can deny it.

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  43. I think I did enough on clearing out the misconception on the apostate. There are a lot of Muslims who truly think apostate should be killed only because they left Islam, perhaps you'd enjoy a conversation with them :)
    Anyway a good Muslim should know when he has won the argument and when the conversation is going nowhere.

    For example when Fury posted the verse out of proportion and claimed it a clear evidence to support his claims, I posted the relevant verses that are in fact right next to the verse he clipped, he then jumped to the Hadith

    Fury said "Second, irregardless of what further verses say after 4:89 there are corroborating verses in Bukari that say to kill those that leave Islam that do not adhere to the further verses you presented."

    And made up some irrelevant excuse as a condition to continue the discussion

    Fury "So unless you can find a historian who lived during these times who kept impeccable records and witnessed this as proof, then don't even bring the argument to the table."

    And denied the existence of Prophet Muhammad and Islam all together. And tried to distract the attention away from his earlier claims regarding the verse. We'll, now you know how weak the out of context technique in the face of truth whether he admit it or not, the important thing is you know it now and I know.

    Quran "And say: Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Surely! falsehood is ever bound to vanish."

    No body is running anywhere, I actually do have tasks to do I don't want them to pile up. Thanks and If I find the time I'll come back for more constructive discussions :)

    My motto "Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way." Quran16:125

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  44. The interesting thing is what constitutes an "apostate"?
    Its a muslim who doesnt follow the tenets of islamic faith that includes those who dont follow his sunnah.
    The sunnah consitutes a huge part of enforcing shariah law. Muhammads actions make islamic law viable being as he was the "perfect" example to follow, strangely enough not too much is mentioned about muhammad specifically in the quran, somewhat ironic when the quran itself says....

    "Verily, you have in the messenger of Allah, a most beautiful model (Uswa al-Hassanah)." Laqad kana lakum fee rasooli Allahi oswatun hasanatun Quran 33:21

    So obviously muslims MUST turn to his sunnah and accepted deeds as a means to emulate him which will bring greater rewards in jannah.

    When accepted hadith with "reliable" ISNAD are brought to light its plain to see that muhammad DID kill muslims who left islam, this in turn allows muslims TODAY to do exactly the same, this is proveable beyond doubt!

    Allah says repeatedly in the Quran to obey both Him and the Messenger. One example is Surah an-Nisa ayah 59.

    Ya ayyuha alladhina amanu ati Allaha wa ati ar-Rasul wa ulu'l-amr min kum. Fa in tanaza'tun fi shay'in fa rudduhu ilaAllahi wa ar-Rasul in kuntum tu'minuna bIllahi wa'l-Yawmi al-Akhir. Dhalika khayrun wa ahsanu ta'wil.

    O you, those who have faith, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more beautiful of interpretation.

    He says that the Prophet has been sent to explain the Quran, not just to deliver it (Surah an-Nahl ayah 44).

    Bi al-bayyinat wa az-Zubur wa anzalna ilayka adh-Dhikra li-tubayyina li an-nas maa nuzzila ilayhim wa la'allahum yatafakkarun.

    By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

    So when muslims kill apostates they are merely fgollowing allahs command in the quran and emulating the behaviour of their prophet out of "piety".

    This unfortunately is an unavoidable truth!

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  45. Muslim4Allah "No body is running anywhere, "

    why do i have this strange feeling that someone is running away?lol

    anyway, I know u have tasks and things to do, hope to see u back soon.

    we really enjoy the constructive debate with u.
    i know u try and u put a lot of effort, but at the same time i still feel that u really did not clear anything and u still lack in giving your personal feedback rather u use the pre packaged , i also think u did a poor job in defending your religion or in refuting what we presented, come back to us soon.

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