I just love it when you hear a muslim telling others that they are peaceful people and want to live in peace, and as hard as try to believe that and convince myself, but muslims always manage to ruin that claim by committing violence and terror, this week was a busy week, from iran with the riots following the elections and killing several dozens of your Iranian that want freedom, to somalia where the islamics are killing everyone, to Iraq and the car bombing that killed close to 80 people , to Pakistan and the war on Taliban, to Yemen and the kidnapping and killing of foreigners and the latest in Egypt, a small town called Azbat Boushra of 4000 in population south of Cairo.
The violence started when muslims wanted to prevent the 200 or so Christians in that village from doing a mass / prayer in one of the christians homes, and they attacked the christians , after all was set and done , 18 people were dead and scores injured, in addition to property damage including the priest vehicle which was damaged and totally destroyed.
So here are some questions to muslims, why cant christians and none muslims have the freedom to pray and practice their own religions in the privacy of their own homes, when muslims have all the freedom to practice their religion any where in the world?
why cant christians build churches in some muslim countries when muslims are free to build a church on every block in the west , Europe and the USA?
since muslims have a mosque in Vatican , why cant christians build a church in Mecca?
Finally ,back to the question, do muslims really want to live in peace?
based on all above the answer should now be clear to all.
I welcome the replies and feedback.
Posts
Because Muslims are intolerant of others. The Koran writers knew Islam would be easily defeated if they did not invent verses that oppressed nonmuslims. Mans morality far outweighs the barbarity of Islam. Only brainwashed man could believe the Koran is morally just.
ReplyDelete"since muslims have a mosque in Vatican , why cant christians build a church in Mecca?"
ReplyDeletethat's new, source please?
by the way, churches are all over Muslims community lands just as mousques are all over secular countries with christians communities, so where's the problem?
zerzone, seems like u read the last part of my topic and not the beginning or more like u commented on the later part of my topic and ignored the earlier part, tell me, why cant christians pray in the privacy of their own homes? and why do they have to be attacked and why 18 people have to die? how do u explain that? how do u justify that?
ReplyDeleteand i still do not know why no church is allowed in saudi Arabia when u have a million christian workers there?
and then answer the last question, based on this story and many stories of muslim aggression against other religions just about on daily basis, from Sudan, to Yemen, to Palestine, to Egypt to Lebanon, to Iraq, where churches are burnt and attacked, christians are killed and harrassed and kicked out of their homes , does this tell u that muslims are peaceful and want to live in peace?
dear nabil, I'm interested in verifing the news you posted here where you wrote "since muslims have a mosque in Vatican , why cant christians build a church in Mecca?"
ReplyDeleteit's good news for me, if you don't mind your source. and I'll tell you my comment on the rest of your post afterwards :)
still waiting for the source, I'm begning to wonder Nabil.
ReplyDeleteThe Messenger of Allah is reported to have said: "It is enough lying for a man to speak of everything that he hears."
ReplyDeleteReported by Muslim
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was asked: "Can a believer be a coward?"
The Prophet said: "Yes."
He was then asked: "Can a believer be a miser?"
He replied: "Yes."
And finally, he was asked: "Can a believer be a liar?"
The Prophet said: "No".
So you see it's extremely important for Muslims to verify news before spreading it, otherwise I'll become liar which will make me just another unbeliever. Help me here. give me your good source because I just googled "first mosque in Vatican" and found null.
OK Muslim4Allah bravo, u think u found ur escape plan, OK I lied, although in fact it was a misunderstanding, i think it was an islamic cultural center, or mission to the Vatican, may not exactly a mosque. but hey call it whatever u want and I will take that part back, but hey u still have a lot more to answer to ,so dont get stuck on 1 sentence. u know there are 1000's of mosques in Europe and the USA so dont have a brain freeze on the issue. and hey my post / topic and in fact all my topics have a lot of dirt on islam, maybe u should focus on all the other issues, so i give u this one if it makes u happy, now u need to answer the 100's of other issues in my blog, that u conveniently avoided answering, ur turn buddy, show me what lies u can come up with :) .
ReplyDeleteNabil, we all make mistakes I understand it's part of our human nature to be hasty sometimes.
ReplyDeletePart of my understanding is there's an agreement to leave Saudi Arabia dedicated for Islam, and Vatican dedicated to Christianity.
While the rest of Muslims lands have churches built on it for Christians to practice their faith freely (Quran:"Let there be no compulsion in religion") just as many Christian countries? Or secular countries with Christian communities offered land for mosques.
. And if there are actually some attackers did something to a church somewhere, it also happened to mosques in Christian communities.
The wise action to take here is not to start blaming other's faiths, instead we should see who did it and deliver them to the law.
The hard fact you try to ignore here is criminals exist in every community.
Here for example the united states alone where Muslims Mosques are getting a lot of attacks, see this list of attacks against Muslims mosques in only 1 country:
Arizona
- Imam verbally assaulted in Tempe mosque on 9/11 anniversary 9/11/07
- Acid bomb thrown near worshippers at Glendale Arizona mosque 8/07
- Tucson Mosque graffiti may be hate crime 4/07
- Anti Muslim Posters posted at mosque June 2006,
- Glendale mosque burned December 2004
California
- Cypress mosque (L.A. area) vandalized 6/3/09
- Bakersfield Mosque attacked 10/8/07
- East Contra Costa County mosque victim of arson 8/14/07
- Islamic Center of East Bay in Antioch victim of arson 8/13/07
- Haywood mosque causing quite a stir 2007
- Yermo mosque arson January 2007
- Shots fired into East Bay Mosque January 2007 - repeated attacks on East Bay mosques January 2007- Bin Laden effigy hung outside Culver City Mosque September 2006
- Southern Calif. Mosque vandalized second time August 2006
- Southern California Mosque vandalized August 2006
- Milpitas Mosque vandalized again June 2006
- front door shattered at Milpitas mosque May 2006
- threatening flyer left at Pomona mosque February 2006
- suspicious gas released in Sacramento mosque February 2006
- mosque vandalized September 2005
- Adelanto mosque arson June 2005
- San Luis Obispo mosque vandalized September 2003
- Milpitas mosque site vandalized June 2002
- Lomita mosque vandalized December 2001
- Concord mosque vandalized December 2001
- Pigs blood thrown at San Francisco mosque September 2001
- Conejo Valley mosque vandalized June 2001
- Yuba City mosque burned September 1994
Colorado
- Fort Collins mosque vandalized April 2005
- Denver mosque receives threats May 2004
- plot to bomb Aurora mosque May 1999
- Fort Collins mosque vandalized January 1998
- Radio station employees harrass Denver mosque attendees 1996
Connecticut
- Bridgeport mosque vandalized September 2001
- Meriden, Connecticut mosque denied zoning permit 1999
D.C.
- Suspicious fire at Masjidash Shura December 2006
- Muslim Community Center sign vandalized September 2005
Florida
- shots fired into Miami mosque and Islamic school 1/1/09
- Bricks thrown through windows of St. Petersburg Mosque 9/2007
- Islamic Education Center of Florida set afire. Investigation pending. 4/2007
- VIDEO: Witness to Florida Mosque Shooting speaks 2006
- Sniper Shooting at Florida Mosque during prayers September 2006
- Mosque defacement in Florida part of ongoing spree April 2006
- Broward County mosque vandalized April 2006
- Boca Raton mosque vandalized February 2005
- Bomb explodes outside Champion Mosque July
source http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/mosques_in_us_that_have_experienced_violent_or_racist_incidents1/0012120
ReplyDeleteI just love the source,lol, but anyway, for the sake of the debate , lets agree that all this was true and took place, although i doubt it, considering the source, but anyways, can u tell me how many were killed, in the muslim world in 1 day in Egypt 18 people were killed,and if u add, sudan, irag, yeman, palestine, lebanon,...etc, and see how many attacks and how many churches were vandalized and burnt. how many priests were killed, even nuns, missionaries,...etc.
ReplyDeleteso u think if u compare what muslims do to what christians are doing to be of equal magnitude and severity? u simply cant compare the 2. and if anything u r still looking for excuses and u r still trying to justify and provide cover and protection for what muslims do, simple as that. u r always in denial and looking for excuses, u never act responsibly and u never acknowledge or accept accountability of the barbaric and evil behavior of muslims.
So because of 18 criminals we hold responsibility for the over billion Muslims?None sense.
ReplyDeleteEvery man is accountable for his own action.
By your logic because the Christian KKK who actually held the famous cross while doing their crimes, we should hold every Christian around the world the responsibility of the barbaric behavior of those Christians?. No we don't even ask for other Christians for an apology to the victim families because:
"every man is accountable for his own deeds" in this life and the day of judgment you'll understand this better when that day comes.
Try not to think with your emotions, be fair and reasonable. peace
Muslim4Allah one more time u seem to be missing the entire point and the entire message to u, its only 18 criminals, but the problem is much bigger than that and u r refusing to see beyond the tunnel vision that u r programmed on, u need to expand your scope, open ur eyes and see the 1000 's of attacks, violence, terror, radical behavior and hate carried out by muslims on daily basis, trust me the problem is not isolated and its is not trivial, its real, its huge and its serious, and unless u open ur eyes and acknowledge it it will always be nothing to u, and u would ignore it, u need to step up to the plate and deal with the situation and not simply ride it and write it off as nothing, thats the problem with ur attitude and most muslims, u guys do not take things seriously and u try to justify everything.
ReplyDeletetell me how many muslims are killed by the christian KKK every day, maybe ZERO, although i disagree with calling the KKK christian, as they are not following christianity, but again for the sake of the debate i will go along with ur logic, again ur looking for excuses and trying to justify things. this has been ur attitude since day one, looking for excuses and justification.
and u say ""every man is accountable for his own deeds"
the question is when will muslims be accountable for their deeds?
Let's make it clear, are you trying to convince me that if a Muslim did a crime somewhere we can blame all Muslims? Or blame the whole religion?
ReplyDeletezeronoone , one more time and i am starting to think u maybe missing the entire logic, and the entire argument or maybe intentionally wanting to pretend to be missing it to avoid answering.
ReplyDeletebut here let me explain again, the reason muslims are blamed for the actions of other muslims because all muslim behavior is inspired by the book, the quran, the religion itself and the prophet , so its all linked and u dont separate things, all the violence and radical behavior, terror, and hate are all inspired by islam, thats why all of u are to be blamed, and the second reason is that u guys deny and refuse to accept responsibility and u always look for excuses and u do nothing to stop the terror, violence, death, killing and hate. so u r providing cover and protection to the terrorists, u never deal with them swiftly instead u justify what they are doing. so legally u r partners in these crimes. and u r as guilty for doing nothing and more than that, u r conspiring with them when u defend them and cover for them. so yes the religion is guilty. I hope it is clear to u now.
this is where i am coming from and i expect u to answer with the truth and the logic, we showed u many verses in quran that promote violence, hate, killing and terror, then u would say oh these are out of context, and when we show u what evil muslims are doing, u say these are not muslims. its always excuses, denial and justification.
i hope it will sink in this time.
Correct me If I'm wrong, can I summarize your last post into this:
ReplyDeleteBecause we all follow Islam that you believe is bad and evil teaching religion And Because All Muslims don't condemn that criminal man or men we are now all share the responsibility and are criminalized automatically we are to be blamed?
What if someone condemned all crimes? Can I safely say that whether he condemn all crimes or not he is still guilty and share the responsibility and to be blamed because he follow Islam?
Help me so I can understand you better.
zeronoone I am not sure whats so difficult about what i am saying, i think its very clear.
ReplyDeletelet me explain one more time
yes u r guilty if u r a muslim and follow islam's teachings and quran with all the violence, hate, and terror it promotes as we showed many ayat that promote violence, killing and terror.
yes u r guilty and to be blamed for not condemning and doing enough which means u r a partner and u approve , provide cover and protection for the terrorists.
condemnation is not enough, saying the words is not enough, talk is cheap, u need to act, to do something, u need to crack down on all the extreme and radical Islamic movements, and we know there are too many of them out there. but no one is doing anything about them. in fact most muslims support them.alqaida,taliban, hamas,jihad,hizballah, muslim brotherhood, the islamic youth / courts in Somalia, almujahideen, the different extreme groups in Pakistan and iran and sudan and yemen....etc.
zeroone , thank u for making this post, I was waiting for it, now lets go through it , u copied and pasted this "The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norm"
ReplyDeletenow lets see what wrong with this statement besides being nothing more than cheap talk and bla bla bla, we condemn and we express our deepest sympathies, bla bla....etc. all TALK, where is the action? if some US soldiers committed crimes,killing, rape,abuse, assualt again iraq civilians , women, or even men in Abu Gharib, all these soldiers were punished and tried and now they are in prison, where are these muslims leaders from taking action, from stopping these radicals and fanatics and extremists and terrorists, this is only talk and under the table they support them and harbor them and give them money and weapons , so u r not fooling anyone. so i really dont buy this nonsense. terrorists are free to do whatever they want because of the protection and cover by most muslims.
and the last part of the sentence says "the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. " I think it is within the islamic norms, and please define islamic norms, we showed many verses in quran that promote violence, killing and hate. so in conclusion these people are NOT violating Islamic Norms.
then the statement says this "Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents, that certainly does not seem the case with muslims and islam, and the verse u used or they used 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّىٰ نَبْعَثَ رَسُولًا
tell me how this verse forbid attacks on innocent.
then u made some silly comparison of different crimes or attacks " 2 Nuclear bombs over two cities of Japan, American genocide of original native Americans "Indians" they erased around 100,000,000 natives, and yes they were Christians. Rwanda Massacres...etc." let me assure u all these are not religiously motivated, or inspired. Japan was not muslim, native americans are not muslims, so u are comparing apples to oranges and u r not making any sense. muslim fanatics and terrorists when they target the kafir / infidel west its religiously motivated and inspired. u have to see this as the root of the problem. and thats the difference between this terror and the other crimes against humanity (not islam) and i do condemn them as well, what gives u the idea that I dont, but christianity was not the motivator for these crimes. on the other hand islam motivates and inspires muslim extremists , fanatics and terrorists.
Nabil wrote "but christianity was not the motivator for these crimes"
ReplyDeleteI don't know why you deny it. I'm not going to argue about it but here's only one of Christianity motivated crimes that history kept a good record of it. (I don't bash Christianity I only refute Nabil's attempt to deny Christian motivated crimes, Islam tells me to separate the criminal from whatever religion or nation he belongs to and other innocents sharing his faith, see Quran17:15)
Here's CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity. Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants... and would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." While Columbus described the Indians as "idolaters". On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued: "I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."
The Indians, Columbus reported, "are so naive and so free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When you ask for something they have, they never say no. To the contrary, they offer to share with anyone " He concluded his report by asking for a little help from their Majesties, and in return he would bring them from his next voyage "as much gold as they need... and as many slaves as they ask." He was full of religious talk: "Thus the eternal God, our Lord, gives victory to those who follow His way over apparent impossibilities."
The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."
Now, all what Columbus Holy Crusader did is came to someone's land, raise the cross, kill what he called "idolaters", in the name of Jesus, take the land and gold, force to convert to Christianity, enslave them, burn who didn't convert. propagate Christianity. which eventually led to killing of total 100,000,000 native American (Indians).
dare to tell me now it's not Christianity (religious) motivated? maybe it's humanitarian motivated, or scientifically motivated? world peace or Islamic motivated?
so what have you done about all these crimes?? you celebrate (Columbus day) with along with America. the celebration it self is an ACT of encouragement of Columbus religious motivated crimes.
Using your logic again since they were Christians and you are also Christian, you now share with Columbus the guilt and responsibility of his religious motivated terrorizing actions! (according to YOUR logic not mine)
now for the verse you posted of the Quran, Sura 17 verse 15
ReplyDeleteمَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّىٰ نَبْعَثَ رَسُولًا (15)
"(15) Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his own self. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)."
it teaches us (Muslims) that whoever sins or do a crime we don't share the guilt and punishment to the criminal's innocent people, or his family or his country or whoever share his religion, we believe that only the criminal should be punished and leave out the innocents. so if a fool did a crime we have no right to make his whole religion guilty or whoever follow his religion or nationality or share a common attribute. we give that fool and only that fool to the law if it's possible. do you now recognize the difference in justice between that verse that is in our book, and your (everyone is guilty) logic?
if you still can't understand it, take a moment, discharge all hate you have against Islam, and breathe in some fresh air, and read again objectively, if you refuse to understand we'll that's the difference between you and Islam.
There were NEVER 100,000,000 indians in N. America! Not even close. If you're going to make RIDICULOUS CLAIMS like that, you have to provide PROOF. But you can't because you and I both know that you are a LIAR. How could a few thousand Europeans EVER have settled in a country with ONE HUNDRED MILLION people already living there if those 100,000,000 didn't want them??? It would not have been possible. No matter what modern weapons those few thousand Europeans possessed, they could never have defeated and killed 100,000,000 people. It's a physical impossibility.
ReplyDeleteI've also heard muslims say that Europeans destroyed the cities the North American indians had. There WERE no cities. The indians were nomadic - they lived in teepees and followed animal herds for food. They never stayed in one place long enough to build any cities.
Do you muslims have no sense of LOGIC whatsoever??? Can you not think things through and use some COMMON SENSE???
Those that were here when Europeans arrived had murdered ALL of the tall, red haired WHITE people who were here BEFORE them (called Si-Te-Cah). So it was likely their fate to be conquered by white people.
People have always migrated. When Europeans arrived in North America, the indians tried to kill them - AGAIN. But there were too many of them and they defended themselves and prevailed.
Later, Americans went to ARABIC slave traders and bought a MINISCULE number of the black Africans they had captured to work the cotton fields in America.
Muslims still keep slaves in Sudan and Darfur TODAY and they treat them particularly savagely.
You say that islam teaches you that:
"whoever sins or do a crime we don't share the guilt and punishment to the criminal's innocent people, or his family or his country or whoever share his religion, we believe that only the criminal should be punished and leave out the innocents."
And yet you blame those of us alive TODAY for what others did in the past.
So you, sir, are a HYPOCRITE of gargantuan proportions.
Why don't you tell islamic terrorists to take your advice and, "discharge all hate you have against Islam, and breathe in some fresh air, and read again objectively, if you refuse to understand we'll that's the difference between you and Islam."???
Islamic terrorists obviously HATE ISLAM because they are doing their level best to destroy it by using it as a weapon against the world.
The hatred I have for islam was created by muslims, not by me. I'm just an observer.
Birdy, first if you read my post carefuly you'd notice I said "according to your logic" not mine, I don't blame current generation of Columbus crimes. I'm simply using Nabil's logic, read carefully again before posting back.
ReplyDeletesecond I said eventually lead to killing of that number. see American Holocaust D.Stannard "Oxford Press" 1992 100 million kills, and Christopher Columbus did killed 500,000.
birdy try not to distract our dialog we're focusing on Nabil's Logic in blaming everyone because they simply share the same faith of the few criminals.
zeronoon , i know u r becoming so desperate, and u r digging deeper and deeper in old history books trying to justify the evil muslims commit TODAY, so u went back couple hundred years and u discovered "Columbus the holly crusader", lol, u r one funny guy but i give u credit, u dont give up, and ur bag of tricks can stretch back in time to the days of Adam to defend ur cult, hey u r for sure going to janna, as u r doing wonderful work in defending the evil cult of death, killing and terror, but i am not sure for how long u will stay blind, the day will come when u will realize that u can no longer defend the barbaric behavior of muslims.
ReplyDeletei am just amazed how u justify barbaric behavior by another , in ur logic do 2 wrongs make a right?
just for the sake of argument and for the sake of this debate, what if i make u this offer, if i have to agree with u and say christianity and christian are barbaric and evil and terrorist and they killed many innocent people, will u agree to say the same about islam and muslims? will u agree that islam and muslims are also barbaric and evil and terrorists and they killed many innocent? this is a test for u, show me that u have a single brain cell in ur head that still works, show me that your brain still functions and u use it, show me that u r not completely brainwashed. i know its very easy for u to go to ur islamic web sites and copy and paste the nonsense and come post it here to defend ur cult. the real challenge is for u to use your head , logic, reason and common sense. dont follow blindly, wake up my friend.you are going on the wrong tracks, and u will crash, wake up, and get on the right tracks,before its too late.
zeronoone - I have seen lies, but you have dropped the biggest clanger I have ever seen or read in my live anywhere. 100,000,000 American Indians, can I have you source please? I doubt you ever will produce one for me.
ReplyDelete@zeronoone: Ok so continuing with Nabil's logic let assume that you are correct and assume that Columbus was a Prophet of god. Where is your evidence that he received revelations and commands from God? And show us the verses from his holy book that encourages his followers to do unspeakable things in the name of his god such as killing 500.000 or 100,000,000 people?
ReplyDeletergpbuh, if you read my whole post you'll find the source of that figure
ReplyDeleteNabil, That's exactly my point.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree قلبا و قالبا
Yes
There are criminal Muslims . Just as there are Christian criminals.
There are Muslims who committed unjust and awful crimes in the name of their religion, just as there are Christian criminals who committed unjust and awful crimes in the name of their religion.
No
Christianity and Christians are not barbaric and evil and terrorist, terrorist is the "One" who kills unjustly.
Just as Islam and Muslims are not barbaric and evil and terrorist, terrorist is the "One" who kills unjustly.
Should we blame every Muslim because of those who made crimes in the name of Islam?
Should we blame every Christian because of Columbus who made the crimes in the name of Christianity?
I'm being fair. If you say we should blame innocent Muslims because some of them did a crime, than I'll have to ask you what if we blame innocent Christians because some of them did a crime?
I've shown that a man can come and use his religion to make crimes just as Columbus did, and many more others in my history list who misused Christianity and Islam.
To judge a religion because of some if it's followers is completely irrational because we'll end up blaming everyone on the planet.
To judge a religion you need to look into it's OWN Text (in full context).
Quran17:15 "Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his own self. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)."
Now going back to your original blog "Do Muslims want to live in peace? and the answer is …"
To answer that question based on the crimes you listed in the blog is irrational and misleading for simple minds. And since you only listed the "crimes done by Muslims" to answer your topic And not by using the "creed or Islamic Text" this blog is obviously irrational and misleading. This is my ultimate point. After making it clear If any of you didn't get it, please read back my whole posts in order.
PS I don't come to debate or win or satisfy my ego. I come for the sake of constructive Dialog not irrational ones.
Peace :=)
Zeronoone you are an uneducated idiot. The number one killer of Native Americans, which you grossly over exaggerated the number of the Native American population, was not man, but disease. Native Americans had never been exposed to old world diseases and had no immunity. Small pox was the number one killer, followed by measles, influenza, whooping cough, diptheria, typhus, bubonic plague, cholera, and scarlet fever. In fact it is estimated that 75 - 90% of Native Americans deaths were due to these diseases. The same happened with Hawaiians, the common cold, which Hawaiians had no immunity to, since it had not previously existed in Hawaii, wipped out over half the Hawaiian population.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you should ask your Allah why he created such diseases and in such a fashion that others would have no immunitee and it kill off almost the entire population of some people.
This info is in all American History books. Your widescale genocide claim is total bullshit. Yes there were massacers, but no where on the scale you are suggesting.
Furthermore, since the majority of Native Americans were nomadic, did not domesticate livestock, and were not farmers, but instead hunter gatherers, once they became ill with old world diseases, they were left incapacitated and either died from the disease or starvation.
One last point zeronoone, you do realize that Columbus never found or stepped foot in North American. He found the Caribbean Islands, Central America, and South America.
ReplyDeleteHi fury, I don't know about the exact number of Indian victims and I don't suggest a number I only took it from the source I mentioned, it was this:
ReplyDeleteAmerican Holocaust, David E. Stannard "the total extermination of many American Indian peoples and the near-extermination of others, in numbers that eventually totaled a close to 100,000,000." p. 151
you can meet him
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stannard
Some say it's 100 mil, some say it's 50 millions, and some say they were only few millions killings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Americas
What's important here is not the number of victims, it's the killing it self. I chose Columbus only because he's on my list of examples of religious motivated crimes done by Christians to show my friend Nabil that history keeps a record of Christian criminals just as Muslims criminals and almost all known religions, and non religions (atheism and seculars systems).
If you think they're gone simply because they all together got sick, or decided to disappear or commit mass suicide, go ahead and read about it but keep in mind I have much more on religious Motivated Crimes besides Columbus the friendly explorer.
Mass suicide? I did not mention suicide. I did however admit to massacre's committed against Native Americans. What you fail to realize is that I have Native American ancestry and heard handed down stories from my half Cherokee grandfather, which his full blood Cherokee mothers family were fortunate enough to not be included in the "Trail of Tears".
ReplyDeleteHowever, the fact remains that it was mostly Small Pox, along with other mentioned diseases that killed off the majority of Native Americans. All of this is widely available info. Native Americans had no acquired immunity since these diseases did not exist here before the arrival of Europeans which brought their old world diseases with them. This is fact.
In fact the majority of these diseases occur due to domestication of animals, where virus's mutate in animals and are acquired by humans, such as with the Swine Flu. Native Americans did not domesticate Live Stock. As a matter of fact, they did not even have horses, which were not indigenous to America, until after Europeans brought over horses which some escaped and populated the plains as wild horses.
As far as the massacres committed by Europeans on Native Americans, one can hardly attribute that to religion. Native Americans were warriors who warred with other tribes. Of course there were clashes between European settlers and Native Americans. But this had nothing to do with religion.
Try to use some common sense and better sources next time. Much of what you produced is in heavy dispute and you will find many authors disagreeing with the authors you presented. You should also research pandemics in the U.S. which you find many existed and attributed to huge amounts of Native American deaths.
Fury, first I apologies if I said anything insensitive.
ReplyDeleteSince you admit the massacre or crimes against natives then we have no problem, as I said earlier there are different estimations I read from different sources and I'm not interested ((AT ALL)) of the numbers whether it's hundreds or even fewer, or what was the different causes of deaths, it's only the crimes to made my point. If you read my earlier posts you'd understand that and save yourself the trouble but thanks for sharing information it shows your good intentions.
((((((((I'm not interested for the crimes of other colonists))))))), I was talking about Columbus:
During Columbus' tenure as "viceroy and governor" of the Caribbean Islands and the American mainland from 1493 until 1500, he instituted policies of slavery (encomienda) and the systematic murder and rape of the Taino population. Dominican priest, Bartolome de Las Casas was the first European historian in the Americas. He was an eyewitness and wrote in painful detail of the tortures he witnessed. In a survey conducted in 1496, he estimated that over 5 million people had been exterminated within the first three years of the Columbus rule. [Actual survey conducted in 1496 by Bartolome de Las Casas, cited in J.B. Thatcher, Christopher Columbus, Vol. 2 [Source: New York: Putnam Sons Publishers, 1903-1904), p. 348ff. cited in Churchill.] Later accounts that gloss over the horrors of the Columbus regime are the revisions of history.
For more see http://www.transformcolumbusday.org/faqtcd.html
According to Historians Columbus did these crime yet he was full of religious talk, another example of his religious motivations in his personal log, he wrote his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was "to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens." Source "Columbus Book of Prophecies"
http://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Columbuss-Book-Prophecies-Reproduction/dp/8476454775
"On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."
Source "American Holocaust" D. Stannard Oxford University Press, 1992 page 66
http://books.google.com/books?id=RzFsODcGjfcC&pg=PA66&dq=%22lord+and+resist+and+contradict+him%22
And again, I don't attribute those crimes to any religion. I attribute crimes to the criminals alone. Every man is responsible for his own crimes and will be judge later, I don't blame others because they share the same faith that criminal holds, and every victim will get justice. peace
Actually Zeroonone you claimed Columbus's crimes and the genocide of Native Americans to be caused by Christianity. I have explained to you the majority of Native Americans deaths were due to disease brought from the old world.
ReplyDeleteAs far as your claims of Christopher Columbus, being that he never stepped foot in North America, then your claims to not apply to this continent. You do realize that North America and South America are two different continent's.
I can assure you the atrocities that did happen in North America against Native Americans had nothing to do with religion, but instead greed or retaliation. The majority of the surviving North America Native Americans still practice their Native American religion.
Furthermore, huge land tracts were given back, as well much government money to compensate for these crimes. Where has Islam done this to those who lands they stole? None!!! Not a single nation have they compensated or apologized for the acts committed by their ancestors. Can anyone of these people revert back to the religion of their ancestors without persecution? No, they can not.
You simply can not compare what Islam did, which was religiously motivated when they conquered many lands forcing conversion by the sword, although this was also motivated by greed as well being that they pillaged, looted, and robbed along the way, as well as taking human as captives for either ransom or slavery (both domestic and sexual), to what happened in the Americas.
Of all people responding to you on this thread, I am the one that is the most impartial, being that I grew up hearing the handed down stories from my Native American ancestors.
If you want to try to compare what happened to Native Americans to Islams sins to make you feel better by trying to force it into twisted claim that this was the act of Christianity, then Christianity still comes out smelling better.
But remember, I am not even a Christian. I do not believe in any of the Abrahamic faiths. But I do deal in facts.
Like mentioned above, Islam has never admitted to or compensated for it's crimes. Give back large sects of land you stole and allow people to revert back to their previous religion without persecution. Also give monetary compensation for your crimes, such as to the Berbers of North Africa and numerous others.
What Islam did to Hindus in India is much worse than what claims you make against Christopher Columbus. India has their own "Trail of Tears", except they were not being forced to relocate because gold was found on their land, instead being taken back to Arabia as slaves. Then come back and talk to me about which religion committed the least amount of crimes against humanity. Until then, Islam holds the number one record.
Hi Fury, I don't know why you keep insisting on not reading my posts. I'll assume you do it not intentionally so I'll go along with you here.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why you keep trying to distract the attention away from the subject. I told you many times I don't care about other religions because I already know criminals exist in each of them and are using religions according to their mentality and understanding and their goals. And I don't blame the religions at all, it's the criminal him self that should be responsible (not his religion nor his people not his kids it's not my creed see the Quran17:15).
a certain president never set a foot on a place in Japan yet he actually nuked people in 2 cities regardless of being right or wrong about it setting a foot in a place is not essential to do a crime. I don't want to argue and start another topic. Who said anything about comparing religions, who said anything about setting a foot in north America, who said anything about Columbus's crimes and the genocide of Native Americans to be caused by Christianity... No, he misused Christianity as a motive just as when a scientist use science to make inhumane experiments on little babies. Get it ? I hope you do. If you don't then I suggest you open up another topic to discuss it.
Now Fury, for the important part. Read my posts before commenting please otherwise I'll assume you are intentionally trying to distract the attention.
I'll copy my earlier post for you so you don't have the excuse to talk about something else:
Quoting my self:
"During Columbus' tenure as "viceroy and governor" of the Caribbean Islands and the American mainland from 1493 until 1500, he instituted policies of slavery (encomienda) and the systematic murder and rape of the Taino population. Dominican priest, Bartolome de Las Casas was the first European historian in the Americas. He was an eyewitness and wrote in painful detail of the tortures he witnessed. In a survey conducted in 1496, he estimated that over 5 million people had been exterminated within the first three years of the Columbus rule. [Actual survey conducted in 1496 by Bartolome de Las Casas, cited in J.B. Thatcher, Christopher Columbus, Vol. 2 [Source: New York: Putnam Sons Publishers, 1903-1904), p. 348ff. cited in Churchill.] "
Read my whole posts to understand even more.
Columbus was religious, and motivated by religion and did crimes because of that regardless of his misunderstanding his religion or not (see proofs in my earlier posts). So blaming someone's religion or all the followers of that religion because some criminal was using religion for his means is unjust and irrational. That's all I needed to say.
zeroone"Columbus was religious, and motivated by religion and did crimes "
ReplyDeletemy friend its becoming clear that u r so confused that u contradict yourself all the time.
why do u accept this logic and u say he is motivated by religion but u dont accept it when i say when muslims do it they are motivated by religion.
then u say religions have nothing to do with it.
make up ur mind its either religions have to do with it or not, cant be both.
again i see u using my logic and my message to turn things around, u r defending ur religion by pointing the flaws in other religions, again and i say it to u , 2 wrongs dont make a right, so i wish that u would stop the distractions and just deal and address with the issue, the topic is specific about islam, to defend it by attacking other religions is not the way to deal with it, i made my post / topic and message very clear, and I showed that muslims do not want to live in peace and do not want others to live in peace and the post about the violence in Egypt against the Christians was one of many examples so to go back to Columbus days , more than 200 yr back to defend the barbaric behavior of muslims today and to justify is not the answer. and to say religion has nothing to do with it is also not true because we showed u many verses in quran that promote hate and violence and terror and killing , and to say these verses are out of context is not acceptable and to blame translation is also a poor excuse because i can read them and understand them in Arabic.
so i say dig deeper in ur bag of tricks,or find a new islamic web site with prepackaged answers , copy and paste again, or better yet, use ur own head (brain) and answer with common sense , logic, truth and facts and accept the problem and deal with it. no need to dance around the issue. what do u say to that?
Nabil, you're confused because I need to simplify even more on what I meant by motivated by religion.
ReplyDeleteIf you read Columbus talk you'll notice that he was driven by his religion.
In this example you'll see that he used God and Church to motivate him to do his crimes:
"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."
That's what I mean by using religion as a motive or motivated by religion don't you wonder why I quoted his religious talk? and I don't mean in anyway that his religion ordered him to kill Indians or do those crimes. It's him who used religion to get what he wants. He used religion as a his motive.
That's what I mean.
Nabil wrote:
"again i see u using my logic and my message to turn things around, u r defending ur religion by pointing the flaws in other religions, again and i say it to u , 2 wrongs dont make a right, so i wish that u would stop the distractions and just deal and address with the issue, the topic is specific about islam, to defend it by attacking other religions is not the way to deal with it"
I didn't in anywhere point at flows in the "other religion" show me where if you're truthful ?
And I don't know why you think I'm attacking religion. If you read my post you'll know that I keep telling you the exact opposite I separate the criminal and his religion or the followers of his religion. Nabil the whole point that I'm making is the necessity to separate the criminal him self from the criminal's religion or his family or his people. He is accountable for his actions not his religion nor his people. Same thing apply to your topic, To criminate the whole religion or the whole followers of the religion just because the criminal is using it is unjust and irrational. That's my whole point :)
To judge anyone you look into their "OWN" actions, to judge a religion you look into it's OWN Texts, not into some of it's followers and mix everything up because you hate or have a negative emotional experience. Separation between a Christian and Christianity, a Muslim and Islam. If you insist in believing otherwise then it's you who blame the whole Christianity and all Christians because Columbus was a Christian and was a criminal.
Got it or do I have to simplify even more?
Zeroone / muslim4allah i am so glad u made this last post, because u gave me so much room to dig into that post, i can even drive a train through it.
ReplyDeletelets see, here is ur first quote
"he used God and Church to motivate him to do his crimes"
since u insist on going back in History 400 yrs back, let me take u back 1400 years back and ask u this , can we use the same logic and can we say the same about mohammad " mohammad used Allah to motivate him to do his crimes" ? and if not why not?
and one more quote ""I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church .."
can we also use the mohammad example here too
" Mohammad I certify to you that, with the help of Allah, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of Islam, .." I would think both examples are valid, and can be applicable to the way mohammad spread the message of islam, if not with more violence and more death, killing, terror and more graphical,can u deny that? islam was not spread by preaching but by the sword, and the violence,people were forced into islam, and i am sure our theology members and in many of our videos we showed all these verses / ayat that promoted death and killing if people did not accept islam.
so now tell me how is islam any different? it seems like its also violent, and barbaric, and judging muslims behavior today gives us the proof, i think muslims now went back to the days of mohammad, and we can see it every day, read my latest post on China. in my blog. this is what islam is doing, terror, violence, killing and death, they want to fight all none muslims and kill them. thats the bottom line, and that was inspired by the religion, and thats why i blame the religion.
I hope i am clear now.
Nabil, Islam spread by good preaching or sword or whatever, try not to open up new topics to distract the attention nor your theology team was able to respond when I brought a copy of the whole verses in it's full context to expose their trimming and cutting method.
ReplyDeleteFocus on this blog, Your blog topic says "do Muslims want to live in peace, the answer is..." then you made your conclusion based on crimes done by few Muslims with inaccurate source-less info as an answer to the question. So according to (your logic) in your blog, if we use it in a court of law, if some criminals are found guilty, we should take down all other's who follow the same religion! I don't think any rational judge will accept this unless he's a hater of that religion (Islamophobia condition).
They were criminals, and they were Muslims, according to your logic (not mine) you blame all other Muslims,
Columbus was a criminal and was a Christian, according to your logic (not mine) you blame all other Christians, including your self if you're a Christian.
Whether you insist to keep your "logic" and blame everyone on this planet Or rethink it with reason without the hate, it's your choice no one will ever force a thought into your mind and I'm not debating here I don't debate, you asked for my feedback, and that's all I have for you. And I appreciate the opportunity and the conversation :)
zeroone, please tell me why would i want to distract and shift attention from the topic when i posted it? maybe its something u would do, but certainly not me.
ReplyDeleteso lets still with the topic as u said, and now i like to start with a sentence u posted"do Muslims want to live in peace, the answer is..." then you made your conclusion based on crimes done by few Muslims with inaccurate source-less info as an answer to the question." tell me whats wrong with this sentence, first of all what u call crimes, i call terror and violence, and these are not random crimes that we see every day, these are religion inspired, inspired by islam and quran, thats a big difference, its violence and terror, hate and killing. these dont happen by chance and the massive terror and the wide spread violence, is not isolated and its not a small thing we can just label as random crimes, thats why i blame the religion, and i blame all muslims. so ur simplistic example of a judge and a criminal is not an accurate comparison, again u r comparing apples to oranges, and u cant do that. these are not random crimes and u r refusing to see that distinction. u need to expand the scope and open ur eyes and see the reality and the truth. u need to link the behavior of muslims to the teachings of islam. I still insist and i repeat theology team have done a great work on this, and one of the new vids by ASK, on The Infidels Mosque channel,and on my main page / channel titled "Quran - Divine revelation ...." gives u a clear picture and the link of muslims behavior and the book u follow, it is clear with ayat (verses) , u can see the vid. and please dont tell me out of context and this and that, i know what i am reading and there is no ifs or buts about it. its as clear as it can be and its not so peaceful to me.
one lat thing, just FYI , on the ITF web site, seems like my latest new posts were deleted including the hijab topic, we are still looking into how it happened and who was behind it. so all that debate was deleted, but trust me, i dont give up easily, no matter who is trying to silence me, the truth will be told, no matter what and no one can discourage me. i will post more topics, i just want to wait till we settle on who was behind this.
for now we can debate here. i look forward to your feedback.
Thanks for the invitation to debate, but I told you I don't like to debate, I believe in dialog and enjoy it much more, to find common ground and build something constructive so that we all find useful and bring us closer.
ReplyDeleteQuran3:64 "Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him)."
I don't believe in criminalizing a whole race or followers of a religion just because of those criminals or terrorists of freedom fighters whatever you call them, or spending my life in hate and phobia of that religion, the alternative is compassion, understanding, separation of the criminal and those who share his religion. If you don't like this and wish to spend your life in hate and racism, all the power to you. but remember this, they way you feel here in this life will be reflected on your eternal life. your inside hell on earth will be hell on the afterlife, your inside peace on earth will be heaven in the afterlife. And internal peace is only achieved by total submission to God your creator who knows what's good and bad for us. I hope you understand this maybe not now, perhaps later, and hopefully not too late :)
Debaters often focus on glorious victories and tend to not admit their flaws. personally I don't care to win, if someone wants to cling to his wrong ideas then it's his choice and I believe God knows best who's truly arrogant and who's willing to accept the truth even if it means change. And in the end God will be the judge not me.
Quran16:125 "Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance."
If you read the verse carefully you'll understand all what I'm trying to say.
A wise Muslim scholar once said: "I debated with many scholars and I ended up wining, yet each time I debate with an ignorant fool I end up loosing."
Debates are useful when it's public and is left to the audience to judge and make up their own minds if it's done by specialists with authentic resources and valid references not made up ones. The objective audience are the only winners, It's defiantly not useful for the debaters them self's unless they seek fame and temporary glory or money paid by some organizations in some cases. (organized hate propaganda)
In the end, I know that no matter what truth I will present I'll always have those who will accept it and free their minds, and there will always be those who are willing to resist and keep the comfy blinders. Change requires courage. Peace and guidance of Allah to those who seek it.
PS. Try not to quickly grab your keyboard and think how to respond to my post, instead spend your time understanding it.
zeronoone: I would like to take issue with you specifically with this statement you made:
ReplyDelete"your inside hell on earth will be hell on the afterlife, your inside peace on earth will be heaven in the afterlife. And internal peace is only achieved by total submission to God your creator who knows what's good and bad for us. I hope you understand this maybe not now, perhaps later, and hopefully not too late :)
Does it make any sense to you that a loving most merciful god would ever allow humans to endeaver everlasting torment in a hell, because they dont recognize the five pillars of islam.Especially living in a world that god created, who according to islam is perfect yet created a very imperfect world. this makes no sense.
zeroone, if u prefer to use the word dialogue its fine with me, dialogue it is.but that will NOT change facts, and the truth will still be told. and trust me i never respond to any of ur posts without thinking and i never rush, in fact i always take my time, and all my answers are always well thought of.
ReplyDeleteIn ur last post it seems that u failed to respond directly to my post, so i like to suggest that u go back and read it, understand it and respond to the issues and the facts I posted and try to be clear and give straight forward answers .
finally i like to suggest that u visit the ITF web and read my newest post " to enter the muslim heaven , dress code is required" I think u may have something to say there.
Kaimana00,you said "Does it make any sense to you that a loving most merciful god would ever allow humans to endeaver everlasting torment in a hell, because they dont recognize the five pillars of islam."
ReplyDeleteThe answer is no it make no sense at all :)
God don't throw people in eternal hell for not knowing the pillars or his religion. eternal hell has it's conditions, just as the temporary punishment in hell. Knowing God and yet choosing to reject his teaching is one of these conditions. Another is choosing to ignore all signs of God, ignoring the built-in urge to question everything and seek for the truth is also another condition.
Your question is fundamental knowledge to Muslims. God mentioned many times in the Quran he's Most merciful and Severe punisher.
Is it cruelty to get someone in painful hell in the first place?
What will happen if God promises everyone to paradise? Do you think they'll strive to be better persons? Or would that only encourage them to take it for granted and commit adultery, drink alcohol, kill their fellow humans, commit inhumane crimes and injustice. why not since they already guaranteed paradise. We humans need to be motivated by reward and punishment if sins, it works, It's the whole basic idea of the court of law. And no one dare to deny this.
Next, let's examine the size of punishment, is it fair to make the size of punishment equal to the size of the crime? is it cruelty to create such thing as eternal hell? The most relevant question is who really deserve it in the first place.
Let's examine this situations to get an idea:
Ever heard of a Pharaon in ancient Egypt, when he found out there's a Muslim woman who's only crime is to worship none but Allah, he took her and her kids and dunked them alive in front of her in a hot melted copper just to make an example out of her. And finished her. Don't you think she deserves eternal highest level in paradise for her and her kids? and Hell for Pharaoh? That's 1 of he's crimes. He died trying to kill the messenger Moses and never repent.
And Don't you think the all-knowing God knows in advance if that Pharaoh was given eternal life on earth he'll always be in such cruelty and would never repent?
Then eternal punishment in a place called hell is therefore fair. He already knows Allah, and received warning by a messenger of God, and he was told in Advanced that there is a place called hell yet he chose to become "Kafir" or to "Cover" up the truth and continue his evil way of life. Kafir means someone who "cover" to conceal to hide the truth. it don't mean for someone who don't know the five pillars or Islam or the truth, it only means those who knows the truth yet chose to Cover it to continue living their old life style in pride on the expense of the truth we'll witness the result of their pride over the truth in hell. Those are most corrupted minds evil doers and will deserve hell unless they repent or God sees otherwise. Allah is most Just, Severe in punishment and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
It's fundamental knowledge to Muslim to know hell can be eternal and temporary as a punishment.
ReplyDeleteIt's temporary for those who made major sins even if they are believers. And it's eternal to those who "Know the truth" yet they chose not to follow God's way and never repent in disobedience such as Iblis or Satan.
It's fundamental knowledge for Muslims to know God is more merciful than your own mother. Let's see samples of his mercy
Allah Almighty is always Willing to forgive all of your sins
The Quran 39:53"Say: 'O my Servants who Have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. "
Allah give the sinner a life time chance to repent
The Quran 35:45"If God were to punish men according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily God has in His sight all His Servants. "
The Quran 5:55"Your (real) friends are God, His Apostle, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship). "
Allah Almighty gives rewards more than bad deeds at the Day of Judgement
The Quran 28:84"If any does good, the reward to him is better than his deed; but if any does evil, the doers of evil are only punished (to the extent) of their deeds. "
Now let's see who is going to eternal paradise. The only requirement to enter the eternal paradise is "la ilaha ila Allah" no God is worthy of worship but The God no other human no prophet no a righteous man no stones no icons no Voodoo no theory or a philosophy. to know God as he really is (He's one, timeless eternal no beginning no end, most merciful, Severe punisher...) and do good deeds as a proof to certify your sincerity of your believe in God. those who do such will be rewarded in eternal paradise.
We don't believe in a guarantee to paradise even if we accept God, no Muslim dare to say we guarantee paradise, we're all exposed to fall into major sin or even become kafir one day, and get in either hell or paradise. We have to keep constant self observation and evaluation, the basis of all moralities.
Knowing that hell and eternal punishment exist is a great mercy for the righteous and peace loving people. But it's furious and outrageous for the evil doers, I believe anyone who don't like the idea of punishment is actually nothing more than an evil doer and planning to do evil for the rest of his life and wish for no punishment. Hell and paradise completes each other in order to motivate us into better human. Knowing about their existence is a great mercy from God almighty.
If we're to guarantee Paradise we'd sit still and have no need to find what's true and false and end up in a community full of self murder, alcohol, adultery, changing moralities everyday , and so on. Paradise and hell is a practical motive to get us into searching for the truth, constantly questioning everything, and do our best to get closer To God, and peace. Paradise on earth and paradise on the next eternal life. It's only natural for us to know the creator, do good and live in paradise.
Zeronoone with all of what you wrote....i believe you are missing my point sure you wouldnt want murderers etc.. in paradise, but theres another option.... especially from an all knowing god if he doesnt find favor with you, why doesnt he just simply destroy you?cease to exist. Why would a Most just god want to torture even a evil human forever when he could just put him or her out of his/her misery?
ReplyDeleteWhat you're suggesting is destruction of evil doers (the worst type) instead of punishing them or punishing them for a period then they'll eventually die.
ReplyDeleteLet's assume that it is the case, and evil doers on earth knew this, what's the impact of this knowledge to the evil doers? To know that whatever they'll do here on earth no matter how bad it is, they'll eventually die and feel nothing.
Which method is more effective in reducing criminal minds, is it knowing that they're going to be punished then die and feel nothing afterwards?
Or knowing that they'll be punished for ever according to the size of that crime?
Which outcome will be more beneficial for the peaceful part of the society?
Here's what God say in his book about that: Quran2:80 (And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?")
Unfortunately that pattern of criminal thinking we actually witnessed many times, once they thought punishment is temporary they think they can endure it because once time pass they'll have no more pain why not exploit this current moment and surrender to evil thinking because eventually they'll escape it and feel nothing of that pain.
The more practical solution is to warn them there is harder punish for bad crimes eternal punishment, peaceful people normally don't feel threatened by it they only stay cautious not to fall in it in fact they receive that warning as a mercy it actually helped reduced major crimes and constrain criminal thinking, and helped us giving serious thought about not to fall into evil and find the true path to Allah peace in this life and the hereafter.
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ReplyDeleteMuslim4Allah, I know we took long to answer ur post, hey I kinda agree with ur logic, lets assume there is God and there is punishment in the life after, and as u said evil people should be punished here and then after death, this is all good and fine with me, IF there is a life after. but if u think along these lines, tell me why islam offers these jihadists, terrorists and killers and haters and suicide bombers the janna and all the virgins , that sounds more like a reward, so in fact islam is promoting the hate and killing and jihad and terror, as all these muslim extremists and fanatics and radicals think they will be rewarded in heaven.
ReplyDeleteso in a way , islam is contradicting what u r telling us, u talk of punishment and islam talk of reward, again, u seem to confuse things and try to give us the peaceful face to islam, when there is no such thing. I wished u would make up ur mind on things as these contradictions are only making things worse and confusing the issues.
Nabil, Nop, Islam don't promote such things, this interpretation of yours is based on your understanding of Islam from an anti Islamic point of view, objectivity is the key for better understanding. We can go on forever about this, but what's important is this, we agree and believe in punishment and reward. And only God will make the judgment. So every one should actually focus on him self for now, and seek God's guidance and eternal happiness in this life and the later.
ReplyDeletezeroone , yes islam promotes violence, jihad,killing and hate, we showed many verses that prove that in our ASK vids, u can not deny that and muslims actions also support my statement as they commit these barbaric acts as the quran instructs them to, please dont look for excuses and dont justify and dont deny, for once link the actions with the satanic book, these are facts u cant deny, they are islamists and jihadists and muslim extremists, they are so much into islam and thats what inspires them, how can u deny the facts. what objectivity r u talking about? u r blinded, brainwashed and in complete denial. u dont see what muslims are doing on daily basis. one day u will wake up.
ReplyDeleteNabil, You can try all your life on focusing and publishing evil acts done by few Muslims, and All you can do is prove evil doers exist in each community, that's it. And they can take any religion or ideology. it's the problem of free will people will always have the free will to do either good or bad.
ReplyDeleteIf you wish to prove Islam promote violence and killing you have to objectively bring the authentic source of Islam and in it's (Context) which you'll be shocked by verses that invites for peace and freedom. Other wise no one will take it seriously, a Muslim will always see your vids as desperate actions to promote myths, and an Islamophobic will see your vids as the truth that he was always tough by TV, and that changes nothing in both sides it's a waste of time if not it promote Islam for persons who never heard of it and willing to study it in it's context.
Personally I don't waste my time in bringing hate and negativity and conflict against 25% of world population I prefer to spend my life into bringing people together from all faiths and background
Quran:49:13"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). "
we're in the 21 century, I believe it's time to set a side our differences and stop being lead by phobia, the media, political agendas, and use our voices to help bring humanity into a higher level that we're intended to be. It's my mission in life, but don't get me wrong I'm not trying to stop you from your work, if you feel what you're doing is your mission in life and you feel it's compatible with your soul than all the power to you, you’re a grown up man and you're willing to take the consequences, but I must say this, I admire your will and energy, and I hope one day you'll employ it in a better use :)
zeroone, more word of wisdom from u, "so r u saying our vids are nothing but mysths and things that never happened ? so Sept 11, Madrid,London,Mumbai...etc. are all myths , thats just wonderful, can u do me a favor, go tell that to the families of those that lost loved ones in these evil terror attacks by muslims, see if they agree with u?
ReplyDeletedo u think they will buy ur myth and conspiracy theories?
do u really think and believe that muslims are contributing to making the world and humanity into a higher level? please tell me how?
what are the muslims contributions? how are they helping humanity by terror and killing and hate?
what r u talking about.
what planet r u on? would u come back to earth? r u on a cloud? its time to come down. wake up, open ur eyes, see the truth, stop fantasizing , yes we are in the 21st century but muslims are rushing / going back to the 7th century and they want to drag everyone with them. and there is no myth and no conspiracy there, the actions of muslims speak for them.
try not to look for excuses, and no denial and no change of topic, try to stay focused this time.
No Nabil, the vids I tagged as myths are the ones about Islam(because they're false) , I didn't mean the terrorist's , and I said that because earlier you said: "zeroone , yes islam promotes violence, jihad,killing and hate, we showed many verses that prove that in our ASK vids, "
ReplyDeletePlease read up my comments in it's correct context :=)
You seem to insist in judging a religion by the actions of it's followers, while the objective researcher will only judge a religion by it's text "in it's context", you can bring up all stories about Muslims gone bad and still said nothing about the religion it self, I can help you bring up even more stories if you like from (all religions and ideologies) who went against their teachings. If you insist in judging the religion by the action of it's followers, then keep it up :)
zeroone , here is what u r missing, our videos and what i am saying that there is a direct link between muslims behavior and the religion and what it instructs and promotes, things are not happening by chance and the trend is clear, the more muslims geto into the religion and islam and quran the more violence, hate, terror and killing we see, so the link is there and its clear, but u r refusing to see it. its now few muslims that went bad and its not that we are reading the verses out of context, u r just closing ur eyes and refusing to see the truth, u prefer to be blind, and u would rather deny and look for excuses. its much easier and more convenient for u and i can understand its part of the brainwashing u went through.
ReplyDeletehave u read my latest posts, of Nigeria, Gaza, the North Carolina terror cell ..etc.
it seems like things are going in the wrong direction, backward and back to the 7th century and u dont seem to have a problem with that do u?
what can I say, good luck in finding that direct link.
ReplyDeletezeronoon , luck is not needed, link was found already, if u dont see it, then u have the problem, we gave plenty of evidence and the link is there and no one cant dispute, refute or ignore, its as clear as the sun, no one can deny it, except if the person is blinded and brainwashed. u may want to open ur eyes, and try to use ur brain, it may help.
ReplyDeletei hope u can take that advice and run with it.
No problem, keep it up
ReplyDelete